Reiterated Mashing, Suitable for BIAB? Options

[Jye]

Has anyone given this ago?

I havent read the byo article but there is a thread on the brewboard and a basicbrewing show on it. From what Ive gathered it involves a number of smaller consecutive mashes (2-3) with each following mash using the sparge from the previous. An example would be if you had a 9 kg grain bill to only mash 3 kg at a normal water to grain ratio. Drain this mash and sparge with all of your brewing water BUT at a low temp so the next 3 kg of grain may be added to this liquor and mashed. Finally drain this 2nd mash and add the last 3 kg of grain and mash. Note the final 2 mashes are full boil volume mashes.

The idea is the enzymes are carried over from mash to mash increasing the mash efficiency. The 1st and 2nd mash times may also be decreased (20min) since the enzymes and starches are dissolved and will be carried over to the next mash.

I dont see the advantage in doing this over a single larger mash but instantly thought this maybe suited to BIAB brewers since they are already doing full volume mashing and can easily remove/add grain.

So whos keen to give it ago?

[kook]

I've read the article and I'm also keen to hear if any others have tried it. I'd like to give it a go, but don't have any beers planned that would really fit it. I can only see it suiting super high abv pale barley wines or "extreme" creations like 120min IPA clones.

I can only see the advantage for really high gravity (1.160+) wort which must also be light in colour. Otherwise its much easier to just boil the wort down to the required concentration.

edit:

Actually, I can now see how this could get past some of the limitations I percieve to exist with high gravity BIAB brews. The only issue I can see is dealing with the losses due to reabsorption.

[Ross]

I'm going to be doing this on my next Dopplebock.
I tried extended boiling on my last dopplebock & ended up with a lovely beer but with no head. Talking to a pro brewer, he informed me that the extended boiling was the problem & not to boil past 90 mins. He personally doesn't boil past 75 mins.

I'll report back with how it goes & take some pics if i remember...

cheers Ross

[Jye]

I can only see the advantage for really high gravity (1.160+) wort which must also be light in colour. Otherwise its much easier to just boil the wort down to the required concentration.

I dont see lighter coloured beers as an advantage of this method, it would be easier just to increase the size of your grain bill and have a normal boil time.

[kevnlis]

It would also be good for people with a 25L esky tun that want to do a high gravity wort. They could use this method to fit all of the grain in without having to lower the grist/liquor ratio to a point of greatly decreasing the efficiency.

[kook]

I dont see lighter coloured beers as an advantage of this method, it would be easier just to increase the size of your grain bill and have a normal boil time.

I can't see how you can achieve really high gravities by increasing your grain bill? There is only so much that you can get out of your grain (IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Even if you have a really low liquor/grist ratio, and don't sparge, you can still only achieve a certain maximum gravity. For example, I did a partigyle brew a while back to create a Belgian Dark Strong and a lower ABV beer. The Belgian Dark Strong used only the first runnings, with no sparge water. Before I added the sugar, this had an og of about 1.095.

[Jye]

Even if you have a really low liquor/grist ratio, and don't sparge, you can still only achieve a certain maximum gravity.

I see what your saying now (IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As you said this method is good for HUGE beers 1.160+

[kook]

Would be pretty cool to try this with 2 mash tuns actually (an extra kettle or two would help too). Drain the first runnings from mash #1 to dough-in mash #2. Then sparge mash tun #1, make a beer from the runnings.

Drain mash #2 and use these first runnings for a massive beer, then sparge this and make another beer! A bit of creativity with specialty grains added to either mash after draining and you could make two different reasonable strength beers and one huge monster (IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

May be a brew-day project for someone ambitious?

[Simon W]

May be a brew-day project for someone ambitious?

ausdb's next WBBD? (IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by Simon W: Nov 28 2007, 03:45 PM

[randyrob]

that really does sound like some fun kook! i think i've read simular in Radical Brewing along with Parti-gyle brewing

has anyone heard about kirin's advertising lately "first press beer" where they only use the first running in their beer?

is this just marketing at play?

Rob.

[Vlad the Pale Al...]

So its a bit like making a starter for your mash.

[BrissyBrew]

brew a double double, or in this case a triple triple, by adding fresh grain each time, watch the gravity rise.

[Kai]

Would be pretty cool to try this with 2 mash tuns actually (an extra kettle or two would help too). Drain the first runnings from mash #1 to dough-in mash #2. Then sparge mash tun #1, make a beer from the runnings.

Drain mash #2 and use these first runnings for a massive beer, then sparge this and make another beer! A bit of creativity with specialty grains added to either mash after draining and you could make two different reasonable strength beers and one huge monster (IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

May be a brew-day project for someone ambitious?

I've heard this mentioned in a few places. jonnylieberman on BeerAdvocate's forums did one a while back.

Myself, I'd rather just do a partigyle. I love those things. But, if you have a small mash tun then I can see the advantage.

[mika]

There must get to a point where the liquor you're trying to mash-in with won't carry any more sugars and your extraction efficiency goes to hell. I think you'd also have to be able to heat the 1st runnings up somehow to be able to hit your mash in temps for the re-iteration. I've got the BYO magazine and did kinda read the article, but couldn't quite see the point. Bt if someone's willing to try it at a brew day I'd come round to watch.

[Kai]

It doesn't sound like a very efficient process to me either unless you do as kook says and make a small beer off the sparge and then you're back to the whole partigyle thing. And the small mash tun factor again, of course.

Since you mention it though, wikipedia says the solubility of maltose in 20°C water is 1.080 g/ml. Of course that's only a very rough indication but nonetheless that'd be a pretty stiff wort.

[edit] I'm sure there's a point where the enzymes shit themselves and stop converting though. But I reckon you'll have have more than the yeast can convert long before that.

[mika]

Pah !...that's a mid-strength round here ! (IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[ausdb]

I've heard this mentioned in a few places. jonnylieberman on BeerAdvocate's forums did one a while back.

Myself, I'd rather just do a partigyle. I love those things. But, if you have a small mash tun then I can see the advantage.

He's one of the Ruthless brewing guys, they do some great stuff here is the url to the page about their attempt but the site does not seem to be working at the moment.
http://lossilverechos.com/beer/e/bw3.html

Its also described in Moshers Radical brewing page 135 as a Doble Doble

SimonW don't give me ideas I might even start brewing again!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Thirsty Boy]

So... its really just a way of adding more and more grain, but you take the first lot out so you don't run out of room and your mash doesn't get too thick??

As Jye said.. I think this would be easy to do BIAB style.

All the water and first grain in, mash, pull out bag etc
Dump the grain, put the bag back in and then put in your second lot of grain, mash, pull out bag
Repeat

I'm not sure that it would actually be really any different to simply putting the whole lot of the grain in the pot in the first place... but its certainly an option if your pot is too small to do that.

Why is it that you sparge with all your brewing water and then mash the second/third mashes in full volume? Is it so the sugar concentration doesn't get too high and inhibit the enzymes?

Why not just do two smaller mashes; and take only the first runnings from each. I think I may be missing something.

I will certainly be looking at this though for higher gravity brews on my non-BIAB system. I only have a 20L mashtun and cant do really big beers on it

This post has been edited by Thirsty Boy: Nov 29 2007, 05:54 AM

[Ross]

Why not just do two smaller mashes; and take only the first runnings from each. I think I may be missing something.

I will certainly be looking at this though for higher gravity brews on my non-BIAB system. I only have a 20L mashtun and cant do really big beers on it

Thirsty,

You certainly could do 2 mashes & just collect the 1st runnings, but then you'd need to collect the 2nd runnings both times & make a smaller brew, to get your efficiency out of the grain used.
This method seem perfect for getting high efficiency out of a high gravity mash without having to sparge with excess water & then boil longer. I get 85% efficiency from a typical 5kg 5% brew, but this drops dramatically as I increase the grain volume. Using this technique, I'll do 2 x 5kg mashes , using the liqour from the previous mash to convert the 2nd mash. I'm hoping to get similar efficiency to a standard batch - time will tell. (IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cheers Ross

[kook]

Why is it that you sparge with all your brewing water and then mash the second/third mashes in full volume? Is it so the sugar concentration doesn't get too high and inhibit the enzymes?

Why not just do two smaller mashes; and take only the first runnings from each. I think I may be missing something.

You don't.

You only collect the first runnings of the first mash, then use this to dough in another mash.

As you said, for BIAB it would work like this (based on a 50L kettle):

Dough in 12.5kg grain until you fill the pot. Mash. Pull out bag.

Stick in another fresh bag of grain. Raise the temp back to mash temp if necessary.

After that is done, you pull out the second bag. Really inefficient way of doing things, but it would be good for producing 1.100+ all malt worts with BIAB.