Honey Malt, What Is It ? Options

[yardy]

planning on doing Jamil's Scottish 60 and it calls for Honey Malt, tried a search here but just got a million references to honey, had a look at Ross' also and couldn't find it, is it referred to as something different here in Oz ?

Cheers
Yard

[Stuster]

From what Wes Smith has posted before, honey malt is a kind of melanoidin malt, so I guess the Weyermann one would be the best sub since we can't get honey malt here.

[yardy]

thanks for that Stuster, really only doing this beer to build up a bunch of yeast, going to pitch my first go at wyeast without a starter into a 1030 OG.

Cheers
Yard

[Kai]

I'm not really sure if honey malt is like melanoidin, everything I've read says honey malt is deprived of oxygen during germination causing the temperature to raise (much like compost, I imagine). I'd happily sub melanoidin for it in a scottish though; I'm pretty sure honey malt is used in similarly small percentages.

[Stuster]

I'm not sure, Kai. I'd looked for info on it before and found this quote by Wes.

Stuart from Tasmania wants to try home malting Melaniodin malt. First question Stuart - have you already tried malting barley? Was it successful? Melanoidin is a difficult and process intensive malt to produce which is why so few maltsters outside of Germany offer the product. You will need to be very comfortable with your malting process to be able to get the necessary control to get the melanoidins to develop. Actually most malts have some melanoidins - these are the colour and flavour agents that give malts their individual characteristics. Melanoidin malt takes this flavour and colour development several stages further. Melanoidin malt still has some levels of active distase and will convert itself, albeit slowly. Colours vary considerably - the Hoepfner brand we stock is usually around 40 EBC (specs online at www.maltcraft.com), Gambrinus "Honey Malt" is 50 EBC and Weyermann is darker again at 70 to 80 EBC.

A bit of background info: Melanoidin malt or Brumalt as the Germans have traditionally called it, is like a "super Munich" - think "Munich on steroids" with pronounced malty aromas, flavours and a reddish colour. It is produced from a high protein "green malt" with a moisture content approaching 50% and is very well modified - ie the acrospire will need to be grown out to at least 100%. In the latter stages of germination, ventilation to the malting box is turned off allowing the buildup of CO2. This causes two things - (1) germination is terminated, and (2) the temperature of the malt rises. While the actual germination process is no longer occurring, the enzymes are still active producing a range of simple sugars and amino acids. These are the building blocks of the Maillard effect which will later produce the melanoidins in abundance.

The next stage is kilning off the still moist malt. Drying will be longer than for normal malt and some "stewing" of the grains will occur in the 60 to 65C range. Final curing will typically be in the mid 90C range although the darker colours will probably require 100 to 105C.

[yardy]

I'd happily sub melanoidin for it in a scottish though; I'm pretty sure honey malt is used in similarly small percentages.

the recipe calls for 7.5 %, not over the top for melanoidin do you think ?

Cheers
Yard


thanks for the quote Stuster

[Stuster]

Perhaps a bit on the high side for my tastes, yardy. Of course, that percentage is a bit misleading as it's a smaller beer anyway. I have that recipe as well and it calls for 230g honey malt. Is that right? I still think that might be too much, but Jamil does tend to use what I think are high amounts of other specialty malts (especially crystal) so it might be fine.

[fraser_john]

I used to use it in some belgian ales when I lived in the USA....this from one of the sources I bought it from:

Gambrinus Honey Malt. 20-30° L. Honey malt is Gambrinus Malting's best description for the unique European malt known as brumalt. Its intense malt sweetness makes it perfect for any specialty beer. It is devoid of any astringent roast flavors.

Never heard of brumalt though!

[yardy]

Perhaps a bit on the high side for my tastes, yardy. Of course, that percentage is a bit misleading as it's a smaller beer anyway. I have that recipe as well and it calls for 230g honey malt. Is that right? I still think that might be too much, but Jamil does tend to use what I think are high amounts of other specialty malts (especially crystal) so it might be fine.

Yeah, that's the same recipe by the sound of it Stuster, 70*C Mash.
I think I'll brew it to JZ's recipe and see how it goes, I've got to look in the grain store and see what i have that's close to Crystal 40 & 120.

Cheers
Yard

btw, thanks for the info fj

[Kai]

I'm not sure, Kai. I'd looked for info on it before and found this quote by Wes.

okay, I'll take that for a dollar.

[horner34]

I just cracked open a Scottish 80 to Jamils specs and it was a cracker I even got a "Horner" from my mega swill mates.

I cant remember what I subbed for the honey malt but I think it was a Joe White caramalt.

I was rapped, it was my second attempt at an ag and it was cracking. It was like that perfect drive that made you keep going even if you were 3 putting all day.
(IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_cheers.gif)

[katzke]

planning on doing Jamil's Scottish 60 and it calls for Honey Malt, tried a search here but just got a million references to honey, had a look at Ross' also and couldn't find it, is it referred to as something different here in Oz ?

Cheers
Yard

I will commit a brewing sin and say don’t worry about it. I use the following reasons. You have not drank the beer before. In asking about using honey malt on USA forums I have gotten conflicting advice. The same kind of conflicting advice about if and when to use Honey for flavor in beer. I also did a search for a substitute and found about the same advice you have gotten.

I also have to say that while you may not have access to all the ingredients we have available in the USA the home brewing craft is much better in Australia then here. I say that because I read the posts about how you can go to the store and buy brewing stuff. You can brew good beer with the canned extract, even the hopped stuff. Here you have to go to a shop that only sells beer and wine making supplies. People that brew with bulk liquid or dry extract are somewhat looked down at. People that brew with the cans are put in the same class as the beer slob that drinks the cheep stuff. Everyone in the USA knows that to be a ‘real home brewer’ you need to go all grain.

We had our club meeting last night. In a discussion about IPA’s and entering in competition I mentioned that the class should be split. We brew an American IPA with American yeast, malt, hops, and way over hopped. The person asking the question made an IPA with Scottish yeast and German malt. He was asking if it would fit in the IPA category. To me our ESB’s are what a true IPA should be. And even they are made with American malts and yeast.

Off my box, back to your question. Use what Australian malts you have and do the best with the recipe you can and be proud of it. I am sure it will drink just fine. I am sure that is what the Scottish convict would have done. Did they send any Scotts to OZ?

[Sunshine_Brewer]

Melanoidian Malt (Weyermann)
EBC 60 - 80 (mash required): Gives you the rich decocted malt flavours that full
bodied European lagers have (without having to go to the trouble of decocting).
Substitute for Belgian Aromatic & also similar to honey malt (typically 50ebc)

straight from the craftbrewer website.

[wessmith]

Another good substitute for Honey Malt if you cant get melanoidin malt is a dark munich. Its made the same way but not quite as intense.

Wes

[yardy]

I am sure that is what the Scottish convict would have done. Did they send any Scotts to OZ?

Err, thanks.

Melanoidian Malt (Weyermann)
EBC 60 - 80 (mash required): Gives you the rich decocted malt flavours that full
bodied European lagers have (without having to go to the trouble of decocting).
Substitute for Belgian Aromatic & also similar to honey malt (typically 50ebc)

straight from the craftbrewer website.

Another good substitute for Honey Malt if you cant get melanoidin malt is a dark munich. Its made the same way but not quite as intense.

Wes

Thanks fellas, I'm onto it.

Cheers
Yard

[ohitsbrad]

Has anyone tried the caramelised version of the Scottish ales in the book? Where you drop all the specialty grains, add a bit of roast barley, mash lower, but boil a few litres of the runnings of the mash down until the sugars caramelise to create the traditional toffee flavours, and boil for 2 hours total.

Sounds interesting, especially seeing as there isn't a great substitute for honey malt which is supposed to be intensely sweet, although as others have said I'm sure melanoidin in its place would be fine.

[newguy]

I've been racking my brain trying to find the post where I described honey malt when I realised that I had actually described it in a PM. (IMG:http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Here it is:

No malt I can think of is even close to honey malt. It's actually kind of gross. I bought a 25kg sack of it quite some time ago because, at the time, I thought that with a name like honey malt it should be good. I was wrong. I still have quite a bit left, even though I've been trying to give it away for the past two years. A little goes a very long way.

I'll describe it. Hopefully that will help you to find something equivalent.

Aroma: Almost sickeningly sweet. It reminds me of pig starter - a feed used to fatten up weanlings. It almost smells rancid, sort of like rotten fruit. There is a strong caramel malt aroma, but it's not clean. It has a definite, but low, pig barn aspect. It's very, very aromatic.

Flavour: Follows the aroma for the most part. The rotten fruit (berries most strongly, apples to a degree) is quite strong. No caramel at all, with an extremely low biscuit-like dryness/toastiness. Colour is very light, lighter than vienna malt.

Overally impression: Use it in small amounts, definitely less than ~3%, to give your beer a hard to identify fruity nose/flavour. In high amounts, it's really gross. Undrinkable. Consider yourself lucky you can't get it.

I honestly can't think of any malt that would be similar to this one. It's just so unique.

ohitsbrad: I've tried doing a Scottish by caramelising the first 2 or 3 litres. It works quite well, but you can accelerate things a bit by pouring the wort into a red hot pot. That really darkens and caramelises the wort very well. Just don't try this with aluminum - it will warp (did that once).

[ohitsbrad]

Thanks newguy. I listened to the podcast of the style show today again. It really didn't convince me to go with the extended boil and caramelisation option. But I wanted to be convinced! it sounded like fun. Have you brewed it with the specialty grains instead? Which did you prefer?

[newguy]

I prefer the specialty grains method because I managed to create a pretty good recipe. I only tried the caramelisation once. The result was okay, but it wasn't as......"interesting" as my other recipe. I imagine if I kept at it, I could come up with a good recipe and procedure, but I just can't be bothered.

[Bizier]

FWIW I came upon this nugget in Brew Like a Monk last night (which I finished thirstily on a hard AFD's night) that CaraVienna is recommended as a substitute for Gambrinus Honey Malt.