Fresh Wort Extract Kits 5L, adding LDME instead of Dextrose, need help adding hops

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DAN831

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So Im using the Fresh Wort Extract Kits (5L) from my LHBS, many LHBS's have a rack of them in the store around here in Brizzy, I hope some of you know what Im referring to.



So I made one up that required 1kg of Dextrose to make it into a full strength Beer, all the rest of them only need 500g of Dextrose to make Full Strength, it end up tasting like a wine/beer, VERY Cidery (VERY).

So ive worked out I need to be using LDME instead of Dextrose to stop this, but I need to add Hops to balance this Malty-ness/Sweetness that I will encounter. Im quite sure that boiling the Extract Liquid would def not be advised by the LHBS (it is all pre-hopped etc), all you are meant to do is add the 5L of liquid to some water in fermenter, then boil water to dissolve Dextrose, add it then top up to 20/23L, pitch yeast at desired temp.



The only thing Ive come across that seems possibly what I need to be doing is QLDKev's answer in this thread https://aussiehomebrewer.com/threads/why-boil-the-extract.30996/ with the bit about a 5-15 min boil?

Im not sure if this is the best way to go about it, I will need as much advise as possible pls, including info on Hop choice, when to add, how much to add, etc. The beers are usually an Australian Bitter Lager, Citra Pale Ale, Mexican Cerv, Australian Lager, plus more but these are the ones usually in rotation the most that I will grab. The Lagers do not need to be at very low fermentation rate, just 18-20 deg is suitable, same temp for all of them, US-05 is suggested for all of them.



My setup:

STC Temp controlled fridge (fits 2 fermenters)

3 Corny Keg Kegerator, 2 taps



Beer making process:

Us-05 yeast used always (re-hydrated)

I rack from my fermenter into Corny keg then cool so I can add the Finings, then Cold Crash for 3 days or more, then I transfer to another Corny Keg with a floating dip tube. After that I carb @ 40psi for 24 hrs, then put back to serving pressure and drink about a day after that.

EVERYTHING is Sanitized at an extreme rate
 
So Im just going to use say 750/800g LDME for the Lager that requires 1kg Dextrose and say 400/450g LDME for the ones that require 500g Dextrose (I dont mind the reduced ABV%)
To fix the over Maltyness/sweetness Im just going to Dry Hop in the fermenter for 4 days, 4-5 days after yeast pitching. Ill use Citra for the ones I know have a citrus-y type of flavour and looking for a more "normal" type of Hop for non-citrus ones.
I will also buy some Iso Hops Extract just to have on hand so after Carbonation in the Keg if I find that it needs more bitterness I can just add a little bit.

So this way I wouldnt need to boil anything, I think it will work a treat.

Please add any knowledge, Id love to hear from some ppl with more experience in this than me to know Im doing everything ok.
 
actually id only need to add some iso hops in the keg to balance the Bitterness that will get lost from adding the LDME, is there much of the Hop Flavour or Aroma that would get lost from using LDME instead of Dex? Why I ask should I even bother Dry Hopping in the fermenter or would those hop profiles largely stay intact?
 
ok so now im thinking a hop tea done for 60mins boiling (with some of the LDME) in water, add the 1st Hop bag straight away, maybe add the flavour and aroma hop bags at normal (Brew Day) intervals or possibly skip the last 2 additions and just dry hop in the FV? I mean the wort extract is already hopped, maybe flavour and aroma additions should only be done during the tea boil and totally skip the dry hop (as its more overpowering Im now reading?), any thoughts pls??
 
Can you post a photo or a link up of the product you’re using…I’m struggling to follow what you’re actually doing.
 
If you want a happy IPA type beer just throw them in.

If you want additional bitterness make a tea.

Or both.

Taste your wort and decide where you want it to go.
 
I think you are over thinking it!

The amount of DME you are talking about is fairly miniscule in terms of a whole brew. Whether you used 1kg of dextrose or DME isn’t really going to matter anywhere near as much as how hoppy you like your beer.

It would be a good idea for you to post a link to the product so people can comment more fully.
There is one point you have to keep in mind: -
If this is a "kit" that makes a normal 20-23L batch. It is already full of commercial malt extract.
There really is a very real limit to how strong a wort you can make by mashing followed by a reasonable boil.
There is an equation that predicts this fairly accurately
oP of first wort = (potential of the malt)/(L:G + potential of the malt)
It takes about 2L of water to cover 1kg of malt grist (L:G) 2:1. If you want the strongest wort possibly you won’t be sparging. If you used a really high enzyme high yielding malt (say a good Pilsner malt) its yield might be as high as 78% (1kg yields 0.78kg of extract)
Shove that into the equation and it looks like oP=0.78/(2+0.78) = 0.281 or 28.1oP, roughly 1.112 as SG.
If you boiled off 10% of the water you would be at ~31oP or 1.247SG
Dilute that to 20L. 5L*31oP=20*7.794oP or 1.031SG
It would also be a seriously inefficient and expensive way to make a wort, hence my suggestion that it’s got a lot of adjunct added. Personally i wouldn’t even call it a fresh wort, more of a kit with a bit of fresh wort added for flavour and maybe bittering.

Anyway put in a link to the product.
Mark
 
I think you are over thinking it!

The amount of DME you are talking about is fairly miniscule in terms of a whole brew. Whether you used 1kg of dextrose or DME isn’t really going to matter anywhere near as much as how hoppy you like your beer.

It would be a good idea for you to post a link to the product so people can comment more fully.
There is one point you have to keep in mind: -
If this is a "kit" that makes a normal 20-23L batch. It is already full of commercial malt extract.
There really is a very real limit to how strong a wort you can make by mashing followed by a reasonable boil.
There is an equation that predicts this fairly accurately
oP of first wort = (potential of the malt)/(L:G + potential of the malt)
It takes about 2L of water to cover 1kg of malt grist (L:G) 2:1. If you want the strongest wort possibly you won’t be sparging. If you used a really high enzyme high yielding malt (say a good Pilsner malt) its yield might be as high as 78% (1kg yields 0.78kg of extract)
Shove that into the equation and it looks like oP=0.78/(2+0.78) = 0.281 or 28.1oP, roughly 1.112 as SG.
If you boiled off 10% of the water you would be at ~31oP or 1.247SG
Dilute that to 20L. 5L*31oP=20*7.794oP or 1.031SG
It would also be a seriously inefficient and expensive way to make a wort, hence my suggestion that it’s got a lot of adjunct added. Personally i wouldn’t even call it a fresh wort, more of a kit with a bit of fresh wort added for flavour and maybe bittering.

Anyway put in a link to the product.
Mark
yes I think the 1st line you said sums it up.

I have worked out whats giving the strange flavours (Cidery and others). I havnt been purging my kegs, during keg to keg transfers, cold crash, etc. That has been 100% confirmed is what is causing the issues.

The products Im talking about are VERY good and the small amount of Dextrose thats added is factored in to make quite a stunning beer, if worried its a tad dry or whatever from the Dex , just swap say half out with LDME as to not affect the Hop profile too much. If someone needed to add a bittering hop at 60m made from a hop tea just to balance out the DME a little that would be something you would need to judge after consuming the drink as there would probably be no need and Id just be (as you say) overthinking it.

Im pretty sure sugar is used in most famous commercial beers and if the Dex is giving you grief with a particular Kit/ Extract Kit that needs to be assesed on a case by case basis.

The Extract 5L mixes make amazing beers, almost always IMO and there is really no need to mess with the Hop profile as youd just be overthinking it, maybe just get some Hop Iso Extract (if you can get it) to add to the keg later if your really worried about low bitterness from going nuts with DME.

Just wanted to clear this up, I appreciate everyones input, thanks
 
I think you are over thinking it!

The amount of DME you are talking about is fairly miniscule in terms of a whole brew. Whether you used 1kg of dextrose or DME isn’t really going to matter anywhere near as much as how hoppy you like your beer.

It would be a good idea for you to post a link to the product so people can comment more fully.
There is one point you have to keep in mind: -
If this is a "kit" that makes a normal 20-23L batch. It is already full of commercial malt extract.
There really is a very real limit to how strong a wort you can make by mashing followed by a reasonable boil.
There is an equation that predicts this fairly accurately
oP of first wort = (potential of the malt)/(L:G + potential of the malt)
It takes about 2L of water to cover 1kg of malt grist (L:G) 2:1. If you want the strongest wort possibly you won’t be sparging. If you used a really high enzyme high yielding malt (say a good Pilsner malt) its yield might be as high as 78% (1kg yields 0.78kg of extract)
Shove that into the equation and it looks like oP=0.78/(2+0.78) = 0.281 or 28.1oP, roughly 1.112 as SG.
If you boiled off 10% of the water you would be at ~31oP or 1.247SG
Dilute that to 20L. 5L*31oP=20*7.794oP or 1.031SG
It would also be a seriously inefficient and expensive way to make a wort, hence my suggestion that it’s got a lot of adjunct added. Personally i wouldn’t even call it a fresh wort, more of a kit with a bit of fresh wort added for flavour and maybe bittering.

Anyway put in a link to the product.
Mark
I think you are over thinking it!

The amount of DME you are talking about is fairly miniscule in terms of a whole brew. Whether you used 1kg of dextrose or DME isn’t really going to matter anywhere near as much as how hoppy you like your beer.

It would be a good idea for you to post a link to the product so people can comment more fully.
There is one point you have to keep in mind: -
If this is a "kit" that makes a normal 20-23L batch. It is already full of commercial malt extract.
There really is a very real limit to how strong a wort you can make by mashing followed by a reasonable boil.
There is an equation that predicts this fairly accurately
oP of first wort = (potential of the malt)/(L:G + potential of the malt)
It takes about 2L of water to cover 1kg of malt grist (L:G) 2:1. If you want the strongest wort possibly you won’t be sparging. If you used a really high enzyme high yielding malt (say a good Pilsner malt) its yield might be as high as 78% (1kg yields 0.78kg of extract)
Shove that into the equation and it looks like oP=0.78/(2+0.78) = 0.281 or 28.1oP, roughly 1.112 as SG.
If you boiled off 10% of the water you would be at ~31oP or 1.247SG
Dilute that to 20L. 5L*31oP=20*7.794oP or 1.031SG
It would also be a seriously inefficient and expensive way to make a wort, hence my suggestion that it’s got a lot of adjunct added. Personally i wouldn’t even call it a fresh wort, more of a kit with a bit of fresh wort added for flavour and maybe bittering.

Anyway put in a link to the product.
Mark
actually i have just read this reply closer, why are you missing where im coming from saying: "Whether you used 1kg of dextrose or DME isn’t really going to matter anywhere near as much as how hoppy you like your beer."
if you use 1kg of dextrose in a kit vs 1 kg of DME will make a ******** HUGE difference especially to how hoppy you like your brew. this bit is like wow to me??? pls explain
then you go on typing all this extreme amount of data basically just to run down my name i made up for the 5l extract-y ****** things you get in all the LHBS stores around here, which are a million times better than the cans they also stock. I could have called it a banana with legs to me the name doesnt matter, I assumed they extracted it from a mash somehow, i wasnt really sure but was thinking ppl on here would know the real name anyways as they are quite common. why type all that to achieve making me feel i supposedly giv a **** about how much adjuncts are used, i really wouldnt care about that, or the name i made up on the spot for them
 

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