Max Beer Temp For Gelatine Addition

[MeLoveBeer]

I am getting ready to use gelatine for the first time and was wondering how cold my beer needs to be for it to be effective? I read in the gelatine article that the beer needs to be cold before gelatine is added.

The beer is a pilsner and has been sitting at 12 degrees for 5 weeks.

My original plan was to rack the beer on to the gelatine in my secondary fermenter (my primary doesn't fit in my fridge), CC for a week or so then move it into a keg.

 

[Florian]

I usually cool my primary down to lager temps (somewhere between 0 and 4) after a 3 day diacetyl rest at 18-20. Once it's down at lager temps I then rack onto gelatine in a cube and lager for 4-12 weeks. Cooling down as much as possible before racking has the advantage that even more yeast will already drop out in primary, meaning your beer is essentially sitting on less yeast in secondary. As I bottle and lager for extended periods I prefer to do it this way. Although I sometimes wonder what effect the gelatine might have on the beer during the 4-12 weeks.

But racking at 12 degrees should be fine too, especially seeing that it's already been sitting in primary for 5 weeks and you will transfer to a keg a week later anyway, by then the gelatine had enough time to do it's job.

Florian

 

[Thirsty Boy]

No practical maximum - gelatin will in fact work better in warmer beer than colder beer. Warmer beer is less dense so things fall through it faster. Cold makes yeast stop working, which makes it go dormant and start to fall to the bottom, it doesn't actually make it fall to the bottom any faster. If your beer has stopped fermenting, your yeast is already falling to the bottom of the fermenter - gelatin will make that happen faster, coldness will not.

 

[manticle]

Can you elabotare thirsty? I was under the impression that gelatin worked better in conjunction with CC. I was also under the impression that CC helps drop out yeast - certainly seems to work for me.

I have gelatined beers that I have not CCed and I have CCed beers that I have not gelatined but my best results seem to come from chilling for 24 hours, then fining. I started doing that after it was suggested (forget who but somewhere on this forum) and it seems to work well.

 

[haysie]

horses for courses, do you want a keg with an inch of sediment, that each time you knock or move, another half glass needs to be drawn off, if you want this senario keg at 12 deg and experience no difference other than a big yeast bottom. I suggest knocking a lot of the yeast out via low low temps then kegging/bottling/gelatining.
Crashing at low temps also gives the benefit of a bit extra conditioning. If TB is right about yeast not falling any earlier with very cold beers, I`ll like to see where how and why. Maybe theres a line? but the majority drops likes yep "the brides knickers"

edit, ? not sure but didnt

 

[Nick JD]

I've gelatined at 12C heaps ... works a treat. I see it's been 5 weeks in primary - it's probably already crystal clear.

 

[MeLoveBeer]

Yeh, its already pretty clear, but its my first lager (pilsner) and I want it top notch. Interesting about your thoughts on temp TB, I'd always heard to chill before adding gelatine, but it could have just been part of the process (for those describing the method).

My thoughts would be that chilling the beer before adding gelatine would simply make the process faster (because the gelatine would start to set/gelatinise immediately), but that adding it to warm(er) beer would just mean that the process takes an extra day or so.

Either way, I'll be sure to add a pick to the "whats in the glass" thread, and everyone can see for themselves :icon_cheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

It's quite simple really.

Cold temperatures inactivate yeast - inactive yeast falls to the bottom of the vessel. This happens with or without gelatin.

Many yeast strains, when they stop actively fermenting, tend to clump together... Some are so prone to this they do it even when still active (like SO4) and they fall to the bottom and become inactive... Some have very little tendency to stick together and stay suspended for weeks or months even after they have fully fermented the wort. Like a kolsch strain. Although, given enough time, all the yeast will fall to the bottom no matter what.

The collagen in Gelatin has an electrical charge opposite to that of yeast - it attracts the yeast and causes the yeast to stick together more rapidly and into bigger clumps than it otherwise would... The bigger clumps fall faster.

None of these things are particularly interdependent. Cold, stops the yeast, thus the yeast will fall, it will fall faster with gelatin. But if the yeast has already stopped... Then the the cold doesn't do anything to the yeast that hasn't already happened. The yeast is already falling... Gelatin will make it fall faster.

Now if you are talking about chill stabilization.... That's a whole different ballgame. Shit comes out of solution at cold temperatures and falls to the bottom. Your beer becomes more stable, clearer at serving temperatures and probably tastes better. BUT... Gelatin has sod all effect on those particles and the OP's question was about gelatin not chill stabilization. As such, his plan to rack onto gelatin at 12degrees will work perfectly, his 1 week of cold conditioning will do in my opinion virtually bugger all and he may as well leave the keg at 12. But colder won't hurt...so whichever is easier. Just give the gelatin some time to do its job.

Gelatin will do its job at zero degrees, it will do its job (slightly faster) at 20 degrees too. Its just a matter of knowing what it is that gelatin does in the first place.

TB

Btw - the gelatin "setting" has nothing to do with the process. In fact if any of that happens at all, it is because you have made the gelatin too hot and denatured it's proteins... Which renders it ineffective as a yeast finings agent.

 

[herbo]

Guys, quick questions, sorry for the minor hijack but didn't think it warranted a new thread.

Is is okay to gelatine a keg of beer that is already carbed up? I have one that I'm not happy with the clarity of.

Also I think probably chill haze has a bit to do with it, can you polyclar a keg that has already been carbed up? Will the stuff just go to the bottom, then pour off the first half glass and she's right to go??

 

[manticle]

It's quite simple really.

Cold temperatures inactivate yeast - inactive yeast falls to the bottom of the vessel. This happens with or without gelatin.

Many yeast strains, when they stop actively fermenting, tend to clump together... Some are so prone to this they do it even when still active (like SO4) and they fall to the bottom and become inactive... Some have very little tendency to stick together and stay suspended for weeks or months even after they have fully fermented the wort. Like a kolsch strain. Although, given enough time, all the yeast will fall to the bottom no matter what.

The collagen in Gelatin has an electrical charge opposite to that of yeast - it attracts the yeast and causes the yeast to stick together more rapidly and into bigger clumps than it otherwise would... The bigger clumps fall faster.

None of these things are particularly interdependent. Cold, stops the yeast, thus the yeast will fall, it will fall faster with gelatin. But if the yeast has already stopped... Then the the cold doesn't do anything to the yeast that hasn't already happened. The yeast is already falling... Gelatin will make it fall faster.

Now if you are talking about chill stabilization.... That's a whole different ballgame. Shit comes out of solution at cold temperatures and falls to the bottom. Your beer becomes more stable, clearer at serving temperatures and probably tastes better. BUT... Gelatin has sod all effect on those particles and the OP's question was about gelatin not chill stabilization. As such, his plan to rack onto gelatin at 12degrees will work perfectly, his 1 week of cold conditioning will do in my opinion virtually bugger all and he may as well leave the keg at 12. But colder won't hurt...so whichever is easier. Just give the gelatin some time to do its job.

Gelatin will do its job at zero degrees, it will do its job (slightly faster) at 20 degrees too. Its just a matter of knowing what it is that gelatin does in the first place.

TB

Btw - the gelatin "setting" has nothing to do with the process. In fact if any of that happens at all, it is because you have made the gelatin too hot and denatured it's proteins... Which renders it ineffective as a yeast finings agent.

Almost all of the above makes sense so thankyou. However one thing I'm curious about still - this idea of denaturing gelatin (which gets touted a fair bit in HB circles). Denaturing gelatin (and other proteinaceous material) happens anywhere around 40 degrees. In the case of gelatin, denaturing allows the dissolution of gelatin into water which we actively seek. If the proteins are denatured above 40 degrees to make it dissolve, how do higher temps remove the fining ability of an already denatured substance?

 

[bum]

Almost all of the above makes sense so thankyou. However one thing I'm curious about still - this idea of denaturing gelatin (which gets touted a fair bit in HB circles). Denaturing gelatin (and other proteinaceous material) happens anywhere around 40 degrees. In the case of gelatin, denaturing allows the dissolution of gelatin into water which we actively seek. If the proteins are denatured above 40 degrees to make it dissolve, how do higher temps remove the fining ability of an already denatured substance?

Thanks for asking this question because I was wondering myself after reading many a HBer suggest denaturing isn't such a concern - but then I've read a great many gelatine finning tutorial that suggests disolving at 30-something degrees too.

Very much looking forward to reading any responses to this question even though they'll probably be beyond me.

 

[manticle]

Not sure it will actually dissolve properly at 30 degrees although my experience with gelatine beyond fining is using it as a consolidant in the preservation of paper and my experience of that is quite limited*.

It's preparation of the above that's made me ask this though - I tend to add boiling water to my gelatin and seem to get beer as clear as you'd expect without filtering (can read these sentences through my current alt attempt).

*and I therefore could be barking out of my arse, bum.

 

[hirns]

Guys, quick questions, sorry for the minor hijack but didn't think it warranted a new thread.

Is is okay to gelatine a keg of beer that is already carbed up? I have one that I'm not happy with the clarity of.

Also I think probably chill haze has a bit to do with it, can you polyclar a keg that has already been carbed up? Will the stuff just go to the bottom, then pour off the first half glass and she's right to go??

DON'T, DON'T polyclar unless you are going to filter. The polyclar dust will stay for a lot longer than the first half glass and you will have polyclar dust that with make spectactular effects as it rises with co2 bubbles in your glass and then drops to the bottom to start again.

Use gelatine, but use it carefully! Disolve it in a cup of boiling water and poor into the gassed keg. DO NOT stir unless you want it to froth up all over the floor. Put the lid on, burp and then shake the keg and leave it one to two days. You will get a lot of sediment to begin with but it will be clearer in the long run than with nothing.

Hirns

the gassed beer which

 

[bum]

*and I therefore could be barking out of arse.

Well I could easily say the same as I've only bothered using it for beer twice but I do still find the topic interesting.

 

[rotten]

TB

Btw - the gelatin "setting" has nothing to do with the process. In fact if any of that happens at all, it is because you have made the gelatin too hot and denatured it's proteins... Which renders it ineffective as a yeast finings agent.

Please explain, I'm new to gelatin (finings). My process, 1tsp gelatin in 1 cup boiling water, mix well into chilled brew.
Cheers

 

[hirns]

It's quite simple really.

Cold temperatures inactivate yeast - inactive yeast falls to the bottom of the vessel. This happens with or without gelatin.

Many yeast strains, when they stop actively fermenting, tend to clump together... Some are so prone to this they do it even when still active (like SO4) and they fall to the bottom and become inactive... Some have very little tendency to stick together and stay suspended for weeks or months even after they have fully fermented the wort. Like a kolsch strain. Although, given enough time, all the yeast will fall to the bottom no matter what.

The collagen in Gelatin has an electrical charge opposite to that of yeast - it attracts the yeast and causes the yeast to stick together more rapidly and into bigger clumps than it otherwise would... The bigger clumps fall faster.

None of these things are particularly interdependent. Cold, stops the yeast, thus the yeast will fall, it will fall faster with gelatin. But if the yeast has already stopped... Then the the cold doesn't do anything to the yeast that hasn't already happened. The yeast is already falling... Gelatin will make it fall faster.

Now if you are talking about chill stabilization.... That's a whole different ballgame. Shit comes out of solution at cold temperatures and falls to the bottom. Your beer becomes more stable, clearer at serving temperatures and probably tastes better. BUT... Gelatin has sod all effect on those particles and the OP's question was about gelatin not chill stabilization. As such, his plan to rack onto gelatin at 12degrees will work perfectly, his 1 week of cold conditioning will do in my opinion virtually bugger all and he may as well leave the keg at 12. But colder won't hurt...so whichever is easier. Just give the gelatin some time to do its job.

Gelatin will do its job at zero degrees, it will do its job (slightly faster) at 20 degrees too. Its just a matter of knowing what it is that gelatin does in the first place.

TB

Btw - the gelatin "setting" has nothing to do with the process. In fact if any of that happens at all, it is because you have made the gelatin too hot and denatured it's proteins... Which renders it ineffective as a yeast finings agent.

Interesting post Thirstyboy

I've always used gelatine in the fermentor/secondary at room temps due to limited fridge space. However, I always worked on the assumption that the gelatine would set like jelly in the fridge (around suspended particles) and thus work better in colder conditions

Hirns

 

[manticle]

My experience is that the gelatin does not set noticeably - the only times I've had jelly in the fermenter are if I've added them straight in without dissolving (not recommended).

As TB mentioned - there is no need to make jelly in order for the gelatin to flocc out yeast.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hmmm - the denaturing thing. I too am just parroting things I have heard, things which are perhaps rubbish and which I never thought to question. I shall think and research further, till then I will refrain from saying it again, it may well be bullshit.

But proteins don't just denature at around 40 degrees, that's just where they start to do it... Otherwise why does it take higher temperatures than that to denature and coagulate the proteins from hot break... Or boiled eggs, or steak? Some happens at 40 for sure, but not all of it. Otherwise the whole sous vide thing wouldn't work. Bung a steak into a water bath at 40 and you can leave it there all damn day - it's still going to be barely more than raw because the proteins don't denature till a hotter temp. Maybe the particular proteins in gelatin are OK up till a hotter temp. I was under the impression it was about 70 or 80 degrees?? Still, I'm just speculating about stuff I don't actually know about, so I'll stop it.

Nonetheless, "setting" has nothing to do with gelatin causing yeast to settle out.

Oh and if you do decide to use polyclar without filtering - make sure you are using polyclar VT which is designed to be used without filtering and settles well enough so you can rack off it. But I would do it in secondary and rack to keg from there... Don't know if the stuff will settle well enough for use in a serving keg. Might, dunno, probably not??

 

[felten]

this calls for a good old fashioned side by side experiment

 

[MeLoveBeer]

I was under the impression it was about 70 or 80 degrees?? Still, I'm just speculating about stuff I don't actually know about, so I'll stop it.

Thanks for your well measured input Thirsty (always educational). The gelatine article (that I followed to the letter) recommends holding the gelatine solution at 75 degrees for 15 minutes, so we're going to find out...

How many days do you think it'll take for the gelatine to do its thing? If CC'ing my brew is going to do bugger all, then I'm keen to keg it asap (have a new kegerator and the pilsner is going to be my first beer on tap).